Archive 5 of messages to Correspondence of five personality typologies

Disclaimer. I have correlated PTypes personality types with David Keirsey's type descriptions in Please Understand Me (1984). Nothing that I say in these pages about the Keirsey and the Myers-Briggs® types should be construed to mean that I consider these two different systems to be identical. However, I do, also, correlate the Myers-Briggs® types with PTypes. But, as with Keirsey's, I am not asserting a scientific, or even logical, relationship between the Myers-Briggs® types and the PTypes personality types, but a correlative one.

MBTI, Myers-Briggs, and Myers-Briggs Type Indicator are trademarks or registered trademarks of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Trust in the United States and other countries.

Messages

From:	Joel Bracewell
	ImperialResistance@hotmail.com
Date:	Mon, 3 Jan 2005

Very interesting correspondences. I would be inclined to think they were on-target for me but for one major impediment: the Introversion/Extroversion factor seems to be way off. I'm through the roof on Vigilant, have to fight paranoia constantly, am indisputably a 6w5, and test closest to Scorpio (though I was born on March 23...go figure), but of all the [Myers Briggs®] preferences, the one which appears the most iron-clad in my type layout is where I fall on E vs. I. My strongest preference has invariably been I. My N, F, and P are far more debatable than my I in terms of scores. So close, and yet so far. Nice try, though.

From:	Abigail
	acubabe_2000@yahoo.com
Date:	Sun, 2 Jan 2005

I had thought of Bush as ESFJ, but I can see the ISFJ.

And I'd thought of Clinton as ENFP, but he certainly has an ESFP side. (Or the other way around?)

From:	Martha Kennedy
	mindwanderweg@earthlink.net
Date:	Sat, 1 Jan 2005

This whole SITE has been incredibly informative and helpful to me --- thank you so much!!!!!

From:	carol
	cwildenauer@antioch.com
Date:	Mon, 27 Dec 2004

Thanks for sharing this information....what a great site.

From:	Betty Hutchins
	bettyscruffytwo@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 22 Dec 2004

I think that the results and your conclusions are pretty much on time. I, at age 54 can also see that over time one can change into another type but with basically the same characteristics.

From:	L.A
	elpotente80@hotmail.com
Date:	Fri, 26 Nov 2004

hello ! little and majeur correction to be done ! I am a ENFP ( Leo ascendant Leo ) I don't like controlling people and I am dramatic etc... But , something tell me that the ENFP is definitely a Leo and the INFP is a Libra or others... It makes sens too much. Think about it ! I have also mercury in Leo and my moon is in Saggitarius. So the scorpio don't go there at all. If ENTP are LIBRA why the other INTP libra too. Association don't stop there insn 'it ??? try to find a new place for the scorpion. Thank you ! And the astrology sidereal is a other egnima of life ! number 6 and 5 are not my type I am a 3-7...

+++I'm sorry for not posting immediately this and the other messages received subsequent to today [01.09.05]. I intend to be more conscientious in the future.

From:	DGM
Date:	Sun, 31 Oct 2004

I would say Bush is a ISTP and Kerry is an INFJ

From:	fallingwater
	jon69@cox.net
Date:	Wed, 20 Oct 2004

I'm an INFP nine with manic depression

From:	Harper
Date:	Wed, 13 Oct 2004

Re: How should an INFP deal with an ENTJ boss

just because someone is your boss doesnt mean they aren an ENTJ. im an ENTJ, and most bosses (mine included) are ESTJ, followed by ISTJ. but if your boss is truly an entj:

dont suck up
give your opinion (dont just agree)
do something innovative
dont repeat mistakes

From:	KMM
Date:	Tue, 5 Oct 2004

Hi, I've been periodically surfing your site for a long time now and I've used it to discuss a possible diagnosis with my therapist.

I read the messages and I noted someone asking if the INTP's should be schizotypal and not schizoid.

"Are you sure that INTPs are not schizotypal and that the INTJs are the schizoid ones? That really bothers me."

I can see why the connection might be disturbing, but I feel it's accurate, so I'd like to make a point in favor of your hypotheses.

I've tested as an INTP consistently over the past 6 years and 5w6 on the enneagram and have to agree with the solitary profile. (I am not a Libra though. I am an Aries -- but that's neither here nor there, since I believe the tie in with astrology is rather a secondary trait and not so important.)

Recently, due to poor choices and plain bad luck, I've deteriorated into a neurotic state -- which in my mind, reflected strong schizoid traits. My therapist dismissed as unlikely in repeated discussions on the subject. But recently, after reviewing the DSM, she agrees that schizoid does strongly fit.

It's both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, it is somewhat of a blow, but on the opposing hand, it does give a direction to pursue in therapy towards healing and wellness.

I'd like to credit you with great insight into personality and to thank you for such an informative site. I cna only imagine the time and energy invested in this venture.

The resources are a godsend. I've spent many hours perusing the pages -- I find the psychology of personality and sociology/psychology in general to be fascinating subjects. I'll, more than likely, spend hours more in the future.

Thanks.
KMM

+++Thanks very much for your comments, KMM. They are gratifying and encouraging.

I, also, fit the Schizoid type very well, with additional paranoid and dependent patterns in my personality.

From:	Dr. Marilyn Lutz
	mlutz@mail.barry.edu
Date:	Fri, 1 Oct 2004

Do you have this chart for United States presidents? After the debate last night, I would be interested in your thinking on this.

Bush ISTJ    Kerry ENTP    ???

+++I've typed George W. Bush, Devoted, and John Kerry, Serious. I don't think very much about MBTI® types.

I don't have a chart of the presidents, but I've typed many of them, all of them going back to Teddy Roosevelt or Woodrow Wilson, and some of the more famous ones before them.

From:	Jordan
	djfriedm@yahoo.com
Date:	Sat, 24 Jul 2004

There really should NOT be one to one correspondence between the Enneagram and the MBTI. Each of these respective typologies describe difference dimensions of personality:

The Ennegram---a far more complex, comprehensive and dynamic typlogy, considers the fundamental spiritual or emotional core (the essential motivation) which drives behavior, adaptation styles, forms of dysfunction etc. The Enneagram describes how same personality type will express itself very differently depending upon its state of health or dysfunction.

The MBTI, on the other hand, is a much more static, functional, cursory look at personality. It simply provides a snapshot, at some given moment, of where a person falls on each of its four scales. This seems to have great utility in the corporate world as decision making preferences, and concretness v. intuition, etc. can be identified clearly. The MBTI, however, doesn't consider that some of these things can and do change, depending upon levels of psychological health (i.e. introversion, judgment closure).

I really do not see how the particular package of observable behaviors measured by the MBTI, should logically, or necessarily correspond with the core personality motivations, and the related constellation of behaviors, identified by the Enneagram.

+++ My interest is in promoting a typology of psychiatric categories. The MBTI® and Enneagram categories are here merely to serve that purpose. Using David Keirsey's (1984) descriptions of the MBTI® "types," I imagined which would most closely match each of the personality disorders conceptualized as ideal types. I did the same with Don Riso's (1987) descriptions of The Enneagram sub-types (except for 3 of the types). I admit that some conceptual violence was done to the MBTI® and Enneagram types.

From:	anonymous
Date:	Tue, 13 Jul 2004

I just took a 100-question personality test and scored as an INFP for the mbti and scored highest on 3,4,& 6 for enneagram.

From:	anonymous
Date:	Thur, 8 Jul 2004

Are you sure that INTPs are not schizotypal and that the INTJs are the schizoid ones? That really bothers me.

+++No, I'm not sure about that, but I am sure that being sure or being certain to some degree of scientific probablity doesn't apply to the correspondence. The matches are products of my imagination. The concept of the INTP as described by David Keirsey seemed to me to correspond most closely to schizoid and INTJ to schizotypal.

From:	David Botton
	d_botton@teacher.com
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2004

Holy smokes.
I have never come across a source of MBTI, not even online, that has been as consistently "off base" about typing celebrities. This source made a big splash by typing 2 football players, Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf, correctly, and there was a lot of dollars hanging on the issue. Now, however, knowing what I know about Type, seeing what their findings are, as compared to mine, and most of the rest of the Type world, I have to say these guys are mistaken, and mistaken most consistently and often egregiously, about what they say some notable celebrities are.
The site is:
http://www.braintypes.com/
Jiminy Frickin' Christmas--they've got ESFP Bill Clinton as ENTJ, for crying out loud. That ought to tell you the story right there. They have ISFJ GW Bush as an ENTJ too. Holy smokes. There is no future in Type. I see that now more and more. Initially, I had some latent fears of a future society wherein Type was misused for possible Totalitarian elitist government run by psychs (the aforementioned source does indeed seem to lean toward such elitise views: they pretty much declare nearly ALL leaders of nations as ENTs out of hand: thus we see a new form of "Master Racism/Typism" developing, nevermind that they are probably wrong in most of their supposed "NT" US presidents. However, and I guess thankfully, thanks to these and some so many other errant Type claims on the web, I now see that Type is so loose, so abstract a science, that it shall never get very far in any direction: Type has next to no real future at all: It is by nature too easy to claim things, and too hard to nail anything down.

+++I'm sorry, David. Your message arrived June 22 and I somehow overlooked it.

From:	Wendy
	d_wellswlw@sbcglobal.net
Date:	Sun, 6 Jun 2004

Wow!! That was right on.

From:	David Botton
	d_botton@teacher.com
Date:	Mon, 31 May 2004

I can understand why someone, even the experts, would mis-Type GW Bush at this juncture. The controlled major media holds tremendous sway over our lives and over our perceptions of reality. The major media, and The Establishment behind GW Bush, has indeed deliberately manufactured this "extraverted-thinking" image for the man. But this really is not the real GW Bush. The man has handlers behind him; stage managers. And unlike Clinton, whose Extraversion/Perceiving was and has been evident throughout his career, GW Bush's carefully scripted character type is of an extremely recent vintage.

If you go back over his days of "campaigning" for the presidency four years ago, back before the Establishment and media had refined the image they wanted of him, if you study hours of videotape of the republican primary debates as I have, the ISFJ in GW Bush becomes all too obvious. I am not alone in this position. The head of this website also sees it; as well as an author of numerous books who writes at least peripherally of Type, and who is MBTI certificated: http://www.galtpublishing.com/. So there are at least 3 guys in the universe who are able to "peek behind the curtain" and see the real man behind the show.

Listen, in said republican debates, here is what happened:
1) INFP Alan Keyes destroyed GW Bush (and everyone else); poll after Internet poll made this clear at the time, though nearly most "sheople" still said they would be voting for Bush. (Of course, the obvious question then becomes, "Then why are we even having these debates in the first place?" But that is another question.)
2) STJ Gary Bauer bested Bush a few times, as did TJ John McCain.
3) …and, preposterously enough, the most lifeless, ineffectual speaker of all time, that nerd for all seasons, Mr. Forbes even could parry successfully with GW Bush.

This should be a tip-off, folks: Unlike what we see now, where every reporter's question is carefully scripted beforehand for GW Bush, these debates of 4 years ago required quick, on-the-spot thinking. They required a man who is good under pressure; who can respond quickly with a rapier wit. But GW Bush did nothing of the kind, instead resorting to the use of the word "compassion" as though it were some kind of mantra (a very ISFJ word if ever there was one); this was the word Bush most latched onto when he was NOT scripted; he also had to rely on irrelevant little homespun aphorisms of his Mom, like when he said, "Mom told me to stand up straight,"; and he actually leaving his podium one time in a desperate attempt to receive the blessing (i.e., endorsement) and the backslapping of Alan Keyes, whom was about to drop out of the race--though again running away with yet another debate. Thus we see that when Bush is not scripted, he suddenly becomes NOT an extravert, NOT a thinker. He also resorts to homespun, family-by-the-hearthside feel-goodisms, which are the earmark of an SJ, most especially an ISFJ.
GW Bush is in ISFJ.

And just where was the man Bush when 911 struck? He was reading nursery rhymes to little kids. GW Bush is an ISFJ.

And how did Bush react when he heard about 911? Did he react with the lightning rapier of an ESTP? Thinker Dick Cheney, whom was in the bunker IN CHARGE OF THE NUCLEAR FOOTBALL in this time of crisis (this is a fact). Cheney is actually higher up on the Establishment food chain than is Bush. I've heard the recent movie "Day After Tomorrow" also highlights this. No Extraverted Thinker would acquiesce real power (as opposed to the theatrical power the media makes us believe is real) in such a way.
GW Bush is an ISFJ.

Another reason I am able to spot GW Bush for the ISFJ that he is, is because I am an NF and I have a younger brother whom happens to be an ISFJ. I assure you, when I see Bush Jr. make facial expressions, it is my brother all over again. Those of you whom automatically discount this sort of personal input from an NF, have not very much experience around NFs and their giftedness towards faces and facial recognition.

And in fact, I have five younger brothers, and we all drink to some extent. And guess what: out of all of us, my ISFJ brother has so far had the most problems with his drinking. So stories about GW Bush's early days when he was an alcoholic, stories which are supposed to buttress the argument for his being an ESTP, do not carry much weight with me, I assure you.

And stories of Bush's supposed toughness or supposed assertiveness, and how that is supposed to show he is a T, don't carry any weight with me at all: in fact it reinforces the fact that the man is an F: like Hemingway, Bush is an F who somehow feels an inadequacy, so he blusters and overreacts to show how manly he is. It is classic Feeler, trying to show his manhood. It is right out of the pages of the descriptions of Feelers in Keirsey's books, Kroeger's, ad nauseaum.

Also: when I hear stories of how GW Bush used supposed Artisan/SP skills to "pull himself up by the boot-straps" in this or that rugged oil or other industry, I must admit I scoff out loud: Do we actually believe that ANYbody whose last name is Bush EVER had to "pull himself up" out of ANYthing? Get real, folks. The man's Dad was director of the CIA and has big-wig oil connections, not to mention president. Do we really need to be reminded of that? My, the mesmerism of the major is indeed powerful.

And…speaking of Bush's "connections", I must herein declare that I, as a follower of Jesus Christ, cannot have too much confidence in GW Bush's declaration for Christ. In fact I am highly dubious and would tend to view GW Bush as some kind of "Trojan Horse" that has been offered up to the gullible religious right. Why? Two reasons.
#1) GW Bush's track record, despite all the controlled major media spin, really is not that different from Bill Clinton's track record:
http://www.joelskousen.com/hotissues.html
#2) If GW Bush really is a Christian, he needs to renounce the occultic, anti-Christian oaths he took when he was initiated into Skull and Bones. Yet, to this day, Bush chooses to keep his occultic oaths sacred, secret. He dodges and ducks out of any question on this subject.

From:	David Botton
	d_botton@teacher.com
Date:	Mon, 31 May 2004

Always facinated when people come up with completely different MBTI assessments for public figures -- especially if they're ones that seemed really obvious to me as different types.

"Only obvious if one's vision is hindered by a carefully crafted media image. Not that I blame people: ISFJs can be hard to spot, and the image the controlled major media has done with Bush is, after all, pretty slick. But if you watch the presidential debates of 4 years ago, before the controlled major media and the Establishment string-pullers got hold of Bush's image, if you have such things on videotape and have watched them repeatedly, witnessing how Bush, when intellectually pressed, can resort to only homespun advice from his Mom and desperate attempts to get along with the people beside him, you will see an ISFJ sure enough."

Bush and Clinton, to me, are very similar in working style, except for the T/F factor. (Bush=ESTP, Clinton=ESFP).

"The image, yes."

Simply look at how the men approach the presidential office. Both are pragmatic. Both are negotiators and thrive around people.

"Bush does not thrive around people: he wilted at the republican presidential debates of 4 years ago. How soon we forget. How soon the well-crafted, controlled media makes us forget."

Both prefer to take action (usually seat-of-the pants action), not sit around and speculate.

"Right. Bush take action. That's why, when Bush, while reading nursery rhymes to kiddies, was informed about 911, he "took action" right away. In fact, Bush sat there for quite some time even after receiving the news. He sat and read more stories. And he let Cheney have control of the nuclear football and take control in the bunker while he himself flew all over who knows where for an enigmatic day or two. Bush is in fact slow to action. The people who control Bush: now THOSE guys are indeed quick to action. And Cheney is higher up on the command level than Bush. Let's get that straight."

Bush's whole approach to IRAQ really sums up the ESTP type: Don't bother me with long-term strategy and plans, don't sit around talking, don't follow the established rules or protocol. Something must be done; there's a fire to put out; let's stomp that baby. Aside from his conservative Christian upbringing, the end justifies the means to get there.

"First of all, Bush may not be a Christian, but may in fact be a kind of Trojan Horse to decieve Christians. His policies so far have been in keeping with Bill Clinton's (http://www.joelskousen.com/hotissues.html) and also, if he were a Christian, I should hope he would have confessed and renounced the occultic blood oaths he took as a member of Skull and Bones. Bush has not renounced those oaths and has feigns ignorance about such things, even resorting to lying about the existence of that organization. And if the Iraq un-declared, un-constitutional war of American aggression looks like a TP, it is only because of the people behind the scenes who CONTROL Bush. I could cite so many sources for this your head would spin."

Bush usually manages to cover his tracks a bit better.

"There. You see what a controlled media can do for you?"

Bush's father (ISTJ) no doubt also gave him a certain solid ideology to base his actions on.

"I would doubt Bush's dad would be ISTJ, though I'd consider it. Any guy who was head of the CIA would strike me as INTJ, which Bush Sr.'s speech pattern also reminds me of more, but I could conceivably see ISTJ."

(Note: It's not the actual political or ideological stance that someone holds that "types" them; it's how they support and implement their beliefs that determines type. Kerry can be a "liberal" and still be an ISTJ type, and so on...)

"Note: It's not the actual support and implementation of their supposed beliefs that types them. It is how the media characterizes them and propagandizes them. One can see this in the way that reporters' questions are carefully screened beforehand for Bush Jr. The few times they were not, Bush Jr. fumbled for answers, just like he did in the republican debates 4 years ago. If Bush were an ESTP--or even if he were any kind of E--he would not have to rely on his handlers careful screening of questions. But Bush does. He needs that, because he is an awfully slow wit, verbally; not in keeping with an ESTP at all. My goodness, how the media is slick these days."

From:	Amber L. Runyon
Date:	Sun, 30 May 2004

Do personality disorders weaken or strengthen a person's astrological horoscope?

From:	D N Rao
	dnrav@rediffmail.com
Date:	Sat, 29 May 2004

I have a boss who is ENTJ and I am INFP to be productive how should I deal with him.

From:	David Mc
	fortunato@comcast.net
Date:	Wed, 26 May 2004

Always facinated when people come up with completely different MBTI assessments for public figures -- especially if they're ones that seemed really obvious to me as different types.

Bush and Clinton, to me, are very similar in working style, except for the T/F factor. (Bush=ESTP, Clinton=ESFP).

Not even sure how to 'justify' the readings, I didn't think there was much question about them: Simply look at how the men approach the presidential office.

Both are pragmatic. Both are negotiators and thrive around people. Both prefer to take action (usually seat-of-the pants action), not sit around and speculate.

Bush's whole approach to IRAQ really sums up the ESTP type: Don't bother me with long-term strategy and plans, don't sit around talking, don't follow the established rules or protocol. Something must be done; there's a fire to put out; let's stomp that baby. Aside from his conservative Christian upbringing, the end justifies the means to get there.

Clinton's pecadilloes sum up the ESFP type -- he was a performer, pure and simple. He changed his stories when it suited him, told people what they wanted to hear, took things personally rather than detachedly, did what "felt good" to him.

I think the T/F factor really distinguishes the two men. Bush is simply far more discrete and "rational" than Clinton. Clinton believed he could get away with anything by wooing his audience; Bush does think about how people will most likely react, in the current moment. There are logical inconsistencies in Clinton's behavior, whereas Bush usually manages to cover his tracks a bit better.

Bush's father (ISTJ) no doubt also gave him a certain solid ideology to base his actions on.

Kerry? Haven't watched him much. At first glance, he seems pretty ISTJ in working style.

I think you can get a pretty good reading off a guy by his style of holding the presidential office.

(Note: It's not the actual political or ideological stance that someone holds that "types" them; it's how they support and implement their beliefs that determines type. Kerry can be a "liberal" and still be an ISTJ type, and so on...)

It would be interesting to see how many "typers" out there have kids. I know I've learned alot about type and tweaked much of my "theoretical mindset" just from watching my children develop over the years, along with having to maintain a marriage with someone different than myself.

(If you're curious, I'm an INTP, 5w4. Yeah, that's a bit different -- most INTP's swing towards the 6 wing, if anything -- but it sure makes for an interesting mental life... :) )

From:	Dee
Date:	Tue, 24 May 2004

Dear Dave,
I see here that you have listed me under your description of Masochistic Personality Disorder/Enneagram Type 2. Dave as you well know, you don't know me so I ask that you please remove my user name from this site no justification on either part necessary. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

All the best,

Dee

+++Thanks Dee,
Actually, I listed you on the Masochistic personality type page, which corresponds to Oldham's "Self-Sacrificing Style." But as I promised to remove a reference to anyone upon their request, I've removed the reference to you.

http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/self-sacrificing.html

Best wishes,
Dave

From:	David
	d_botton@teacher.com
Date:	Tue, 18 May 2004

Dave: Yes, I do certainly have a most disinterested attitude toward Bush. I am equally disinterested in Kerry. I shall be voting Constitution Party if I end up voting at all. Skull and Bones vs. Skull and Bones? Geez. Next time there may not even be any election, people. The Establishment ain't even hiding it from you anymore. Dave, as for Kerry's type, in all honesty I really haven't watched him very much, such is my level of disinterest. If I had to take a pick from what little I have seen of Kerry, I'd guess some kind of SP, but I don't feel at all confident in that guess, such is my limited exposure to Establishment Candidate B.

+++I'm typing John Kerry ISTJ.

From:	David
	d_botton@teacher.com
Date:	Tue, 18 May 2004

Oops. I had meant to write that the experts ARE quick to leap, but ARE NOT quick to admit error. Well, I may have made a mistake in syntax, but I don't think I've made a mistake in Typing Bush: I agree with Dave. GW Bush is ISFJ. I've got a brother who is an ISFJ and Bush's mannerisms, facial expressions, are exactly like my brother--though I don't reckon that means much to you. Well, about what others have said: I believe what Keirsey is seeing as an ESTP in GW Bush is but the IMAGE which the media makes of him. The fact is, the man is an awfully slow wit in debates (untypical of an E) and was literally DESTROYED by INFP Alan Keyes in republican primary debates; GW Bush also didn't "work his way up" to the presidency like the media wants you to believe, but rather was "tapped" for the job, just like he was "tapped" for Skull and Bones (nobody who's last name is Bush, whose father was former head of CIA, for crying out loud, not to mention Dad being prez of the US, ever had to "work his way up" into ANYthing, people); also, GW Bush loves using words like "compassion"--he can't even shut up from saying touchy-feely words like that; also, GW Bush likes reading Nursery Rhymes to kids, which is of course where he was during 911; also, GW Bush doesn't mind acquiescing authority, which an ESTP or most any E_T_ would never do--after all, it was this same G! W Bush who was running around, flying around, etc, etc, in those moments after 911, WHILE V.P. DICK CHENEY WAS HOLDING THE NUCLEAR FOOTBALL!!! No ESTP would ever allow his V.P. to have control of the nuclear football, and also no ENTJ certainly, as some other would-be experts on the 'Net have erroneously declared. Bush is an F, and his tough talk that he does is all a sham--like Hemingway's writing, it is overdone, to compensate for what he feels is a lack of manly T in himself. The man's a softy at heart, and he takes orders from a lot of Thinkers around him, a lot of ENTs who really run the show for the man we think runs this country. Yes, they're called The Establishment and they're the ones who really elect our presidents, but that is another story...

From:	David
	Superdjb@beaniekid.net
Date:	Tue, 18 May 2004

Hi, I have to agree to an extent Bush is definitely an SJ, a Guardian, the I and the F, maybe, possibly a T, but I always thought of Bush more as an ESFJ, but ISFJ is my 2nd choice, then ESTJ. S and J definitely. As for Kerry, the E and P definitely show in Kerry, I'm pretty sure he is an S, but he could be an N as well, T or F, well, he changes his mind so often, I can't tell what he's going by with his decisions, lol.

+++Thanks. I guess this is a different David. I, also, think that Kerry is S.

From:	David
Date:	Tue, 18 May 2004

On the attached link page, some guy posted a message saying that GW
Bush is
ISFJ.
I just discovered this thread.
I've been trying to tell people for years that GW Bush is ISFJ.
The experts aren't quick to leap, but they sure are quick to admit
error...
http://www.geocities.com/ptypes/correspondence_archive2.html
by the way, I'd like to contribute to the threads if they're still
ongoing,
but a cursory glance of the site didn't reveal to me a way I could.
Maybe the thread is dead.
It has been 4 years after all.
Or maybe I am just missing it...

David

+++I somehow lost this message, my response, and all of the rest of the page below them. I've reconstructed things as best I can.

From:	Vincent
	vmolmans@noknok.nl
Date:	Sat, 24 Nov 2001

Hello,

My MBTI type is ENFP. In the astro I have the sun in Gemini, the moon in Scorpio and my ascendant is Libra. In enneagram my type is 7 with next best scores on 4 and 5. I read people with Libra ascendant are basically motivated by feeling and emotion (xxFx). Also Libra is intuitive. Gemini is more sensing. Probably I am ESFP/ISFP or ENFP/INFP, I think ENFP.

Gr,
Vincent

+++Okay.

From:	KAT
	treelynx@c4.com
Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 2001

My scores make me an undeniable ISTJ. I am a capricorn. I fit a 9 on the enneagram and would seem to be a serious PType. I am a traditionalist.
My desire to order and structure things in my life things borders on obsessive compulsive. I suffer from depression when my system (by which I guide my life) fails to mesh with what is socially expected of me. I become withdrawn and dysfunctional.
I like to take my time and be methodical. Generally I am relaxed and laid back with social interactions. I get along with everyone I choose to socialize with. I do not like to socialize in large groups of people, as I abhore the small talk and wasted time being diplomatic and generalized - usually involved in group interactions.
If I believe I have a better way of doing things I do them my way. If forced into an authority or rule following situation I do not agree with I have antisocial tendancies. My ethical philosophy is that of ethical egoism. I am very confident when executing a decision. I am not comfortable until I have made a decision. I deliberate carefully before reaching a decision.
I believe religious/ethical beliefs must be taken into consideration along with the basic characteristics that are used in personality grouping.
The basic characteristics for me include: the need for established/establishing order/rules and adhering to the rules/established order.

+++Thanks KAT.

From:	Lisa
	lisategtmeier@hotmail.com
Date:	Wed, 8 Nov 2001

I read others responses, and to tell you the truth I was a little shocked when I looked at how dead on my analysis was. I am an INFJ, a Pisces, and I scored a very strong 4 on the enneagram. I would have to say that I am pretty darn sensitive as well. Guess you have me pegged perfectly!

+++Thanks Lisa. But I hope you'll realize that the Pisces part is just a coincidence.

	Jasper.e@zonnet.nl
Date:	Sun, 21 Oct 2001

Hi there.

I think dat INFP is more related to the sign Pisces, instead of Leo. Leo is a strong sign, who wants to be in the centre of attention and is pride. INFP is a type that gives help to mankind in a very silent and sacrificing way. The MBTI-type INFJ has, in my opinion, a strong link with Cancer. INFJ is strongly connected with the enneatype 4: the romantic. And Cancer seems very similar to this type, because of the intuitive, emotional and mystic qualities.

From:	Alice
	chessiecat@juno.com
Date:	Sat, 20 Oct 2001

I am an INFP and a 4. I chuckled when I read that my associated personality disorder would be "histrionic" and that my personality type would be "dramatic". I am a quiet, very introverted loner, and an artist. I am as far from "drama" and "histrionics" as a person can be. All I really want out of life is a little peace and quiet.

From:	George Edward Purdy
	george_purdy@hotmail.com
Date:	Sat, 20 Oct 2001

I have tried to identify similar connections, but met with failure. They simply do not line up so cleanly. You might also add the Chinese zodiac and see how they line up, and how combinations are likely to line up.

I am an aries born in the year of the cock. I consistently test as INTP close to the I/E split, so technically an NTP.

Here are my ratings on a personality disorder test:

Disorder Rating
Paranoid: Low
Schizoid
Schizotypal: Moderate
Antisocial: Moderate
Borderline: Moderate
Histrionic: Moderate
Narcissistic: Moderate
Avoidant: Low
Dependent: Low
Obsessive-Compulsive: Low

This was not a recent test, and such results tend to change with subsequent testing. Often the wording of such tests influences the results. I do exhibit some sadistic and schizotypal tendencies, so those seem to fit.

In my experience, yes, leos tend to be histrionic I suppose (look at me), but an aries can be, too. In my experience most leos are narcissistic. Scorpios often seem to have compensatory narcissism if they exhibit excessive ego. I know two leos who have borderline personality disorder. I think it's clear that these things don't line up perfectly, but there are surely some tendencies that could be mapped out for different configurations. A friend of mine would probably want to do a chart for such things.

+++I admit that the different typologies may not "line up so cleanly," but PTypes correspondence is the best attempt at doing it.

From:	Chiara
	dorareever79@yahoo.com
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001

I was about to say that I didn't agree with the correspondence between signs and types,being that I am a INFP,4w5 and strongly Aquarian (both Moon and Rising sign)and Taurean (several planets and Sun sign).I didn't remember that my Descendant was actually in Leo,and so I could act like a Leo when I deal with others.As for my sun sign...being a woman I rely more on my Moon sign,and my Sun sign (Taurus)here's matched with ESTJ Myers-Briggs type which,being an INFP,is indeed my shadow type.

From:	Kim
	kbui@att.net
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2001

Linnea,

I am also a INFP/Cancer. My enneagram is a "type 4". I find the descriptions for the INFP type to be quite accurate. May I ask if you've had much luck finding a career that suits you? I haven't, and seem to be always looking for "something else". I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Kim

From:	Linnea
	linnea_hager@yahoo.com
Date:	Wed, 11 Oct 2001

Hi there,

I saw your page with the correlations between Ptypes, Myers-Briggs, astrology, etc. and am really interested in your observations. I have long been a devotee to M-B (I'm constantly trying to type people I come in contact with) and was curious if you know if any statistical measures have been made to see if, for example, a preponderance of INFPs are actually Leos as well (I'm an INFP/Cancer, don't know about the rest). I look forward to hearing from you and chatting more about this.

Thanks,
Linnea

I haven't seen any statistical studies comparing Myers-Briggs types with Astrological signs. The idea is a non-starter, in my book. For me, the Myers-Briggs and Enneagram type systems don't matter much, either. I'm mostly interested in the PTypes/personality disorders categories.

From:	W
	werner@inorbit.com
Date:	Tue, 2 Oct 2001

Where can I find a full description of the 4w5? Thanks,

+++Don Riso originated this way of conceptualizing Enneagram subtypes. The only place where I have seen descriptions of these subtypes, including the 4w5, is in his book, Personality Types (1987) (1996).

Previous messages

it's excellent to see all of the types signs etc on one page, the pieces that my mind has putting together are finally on a webpage which i can refer truely wonderful. really helps to learn about yourself (even if you don't want to know some parts!) i think it's mostly accurate INFP

+++Thanks.

Although my Myers-Briggs score does not correlate with my Enneagram classification as you have shown, I don't disagree with the energetic influence you have identified. I plan to take a deeper look to understand why they differ, and the implications for your system.

That said, there is an additional system of personality that I also believe could incorporate the above energetic tendencies in an individual, and place it in an ever richer (individualized) context. This is the Oriental 4 Pillars Astrology analysis that identifies the "elements" (energies) and their relationships in an individual's chart. It can't really be simplified into an easy chart as shown above, but could be useful for an individual who is interested in an individualized understanding of the energies at work. The 5 elements used in this ancient form of astrology are wood, earth, water, metal and fire. I have found that relating my 4 Pillars analysis to my enneagram analysis and Myers-Briggs provides a much richer and more individualized understanding of the existing energies and how to harmonize them within my life for happiness.

Nice try, however, I have been tested on both Myers-Briggs and the Enneagram and it doesn't work out this way in my case. The way a person understands the world (Myers-Briggs) is not the same as the way one uses energy to live (enneagram). You are stretching Myers-Briggs beyond its scope in my opinion.

Nevertheless, an interesting analysis.

+++Thanks Rebecca. Your comments are well put and correct.

Where can I find the actual Myers Briggs test questions and rating grid? Thank you. Paul Wham

+++I don't know. Mary Hoerr has put together a very good FAQ on the test at http://www.mbtypeguide.com/Type/FAQ.html.

I always test a very strong ISTJ on the MBTI and a Conscientious Idealist on the Oldham. On the Enneagram I am a combination of 1 and 9. I'd like to know why ISTJ and Conscientious Idealist aren't listed as corresponding, since they both describe me perfectly.

+++Because you don't fit my hypothetical systematic idea of the ideal correspondence.

What type is someone who lies all the time? I can't remember a conversation with this person that did not include lies. He also blames everyone else for anything that goes wrong in his life.

+++I see these behaviors as more indicative of character than type. Across the types, as character worsens lying and blaming others increase.

I consistently test INTJ and 5w4. I am
a Leo. Though not formally tested, I
identify most closely with the Sensitive
Oldham Type and have fairly serious
Avoidant symptoms.

I'm not a spokesperson, but from my
observation of INTJs via various email
lists (admittedly not the most scien-
tific method) most of the participants
fall into the Enneagram 1 category, with
type 5 being secondary (usually 5w4).
Most think that type 5 corresponds best
to INTP.

All in all your site is very helpful.

+++Thanks ~flOweR. Like Tom Chou has reminded me, we need to look at ourselves through more than just one of these systems. On my Personality Disorders page I'm pointing to a long article by Dr. Paul McHugh in which he calls for a reform of psychiatry's classification system. His point is that psychiatrists look at people with problems from a number of perspectives (he says four: Disease [or type], Dimensions, Behavior, and Life-Story) and that the DSM should reflect that, and not just represent the Medical Model's disease perspective. I intend to adopt his method.

somewhat accurate. i am an infp, a type four with a five wing, and a cancer-leo cusp. ive been accused of being a borderline personality, and i dont know my pt type. i suppose everyone is slightly different. eh.

+++Oh, yeah.

Please send if possible the matches of famous people that matches my personality!!Thank you Much

+++Not possible.

Mr Kelly:
Would you give us your views on the Enneagram?In the past you have seemed somewhat critical of it....Plus,which of the various typing systems,with its limitations,is the best one to study?
Thanks,Rich

+++Thanks Rich. I've retired from the study of personality types.

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