PTypes - Correspondence (Archive 2): Previous messages

Archive 2 of messages to Correspondence of five personality typologies

Disclaimer. I have correlated PTypes personality types with David Keirsey's type descriptions in Please Understand Me (1984). Nothing that I say in these pages about the Keirsey and the Myers-Briggs� types should be construed to mean that I consider these two different systems to be identical. However, I do, also, correlate the Myers-Briggs� types with PTypes. But, as with Keirsey's, I am not asserting a scientific, or even logical, relationship between the Myers-Briggs� types and the PTypes personality types, but a correlative one.

MBTI, Myers-Briggs, and Myers-Briggs Type Indicator are trademarks or registered trademarks of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Trust in the United States and other countries.

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Previous messages

From:	Jack
	IN54TJ@CS.COM
Date:	Mon, 19 Feb 2001

Wow, I haven't been on this site since posting my message in January. Seems as though the astrology/mbti topic has been pretty hot. Regarding Sylvie's January 20, message. Maybe a good idea would be to read a libra rising(not libra sun) synopsis, in contrast to, the INTP typology to determine if they are parallel. I am not a betting man, but if I were, I think you would see that they are two different personalities. In fact, I think Gemini rising is more indicative to the INTP.

From:	Doreen Traub
	Traubd@health.gov.za
Date:	Wed, 14 Feb 2001

I have just come across your website. It is brillant! It is what I have been looking for!

+++Thanks Doreen.

From:	Sylvie
Date:	Wed, 31 Jan 2001

I agree with Brooke about the importance of the moon, mercury, and rising signs. The sun sign probably says nothing about a person's character.

From:	Brooke
	solipsistic_game@hotmail.com
	http://www.envy.nu/tempus
Date:	Fri, 26 Jan 2001

I'd just like to second Jack's point, that in drawing conclusions about sign and type, you need to address ascendant or rising sign first. To be really comprehensive you would need to look at an entire natal chart, or at least Rising, Sun, Moon and Mercury Signs. If you don't want to encourage belief in astrology, then perhaps you'd consider removing the information. As it stands right now, the astro bits are seriously misleading. My own 'belief' in astrology has been very unwilling and based on objective evidence, so, I'm not exactly it's biggest proponent. Haven't really drawn any conclusions about MB type and Sign, but as far as Enneagram goes, I think you definitely need to look at rising, and moon/mercury signs. From what I've read of Helen Palmer's work, the Enneagram type is an expression of your basic mental and emotional drives. It seems reasonable then, that Ennea-type would be a blend of Moon (traditionally rules emotion) and Mercury (traditionally r! ules intellect) signs. Additionally, I think you'll find striking similarities between Rising sign (ascendant) and Risk Point. These are rudimentary ideas but I've seen them hold true in a few instances. Personally, I test as a 5 consistenly which is totally at odds with both my Aries sun-sign and Libran Ascendant. But 5's under stress operate like sociable 7's who share an almost word-for-word description with Libra. 5's security point of 8 is also very similar to the domineering Aries type. And then I find my Piscean Mercury and Capricorn Moon offer the traits of introspection, higher learning, isolation, and thrift (oversimplification, excuse me). Anyways, I'm curious to see if this holds true for other people.

+++Thanks Brooke. I'm going with Sociobiology for an explanation of human behavior. The little bit I have here about Astrology seems to stimulate thought.

From:	aaron huskin
	achakamm@hotmail.com
Date:	Wed, 24 Jan 2001

wassup yall
dis page is tight to def. everything in this is so true.
well i got to go. peace to the middle east.
aaron

From:	Michele
	joshele@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 22 Jan 2001

i want to know if narcissistic people are pathological liars? I know someone who lies beyond contol (at least it appears that it is out of contol). I need some where to go to find out more.
thanks

From:	Jo��
	blue_glasses770@yahoo.com
Date:	Sat, 20 Jan 2001

My comment might not be directly relevant to the subject of this website but I've noticed that many people who come here are interested in astrology so I will share a few observations. My observations could be inaccurate but I've noticed that people often display personality characteristics that are associated with the sign that is opposite from the one which they are born with.� For example I've known many people who have sun in Libra who act like Aries (Libra's opposite sign. Librans may be mistaken for Ariens more often than people think. One example is how astrologer Liz Greene believed that Joan of Arc must have been an Aries. It turns out that Joan of Arc was a Capricorn with moon in Libra). I've also noticed that many people who have moon in Scorpio act like they have moon in Taurus (for example, they often have personalities that resemble the mother earth archetype which is astrologically associated with Taurus). Pisces is associated with ambitguity (two fi! shes swimming in opposite directions), but I've noticed that Virgos are much more ambiguous while Pisceans are more mercurial and intellectual (qualities of the planet mercury which rules Virgo). Also, if Air signs (Gemini, Libra and Aquarius) are the intellectual signs then it is strange how it seems that more intellectuals (such as philosophers and other abstract thinkers) seem to be born under fire than air signs. One example is no proof for a theory, but it is interesting that Albert Einstein, who is obviously a thinker rather than a feeler, had sun in Pisces (opposite from intellectual Virgo), Mercury in Aries (opposite from intellectual Libra) and moon in Saggittarius (opposite from intellectual Gemini. I know that Gemini does not actually correspond to a thinking type on this webpage but it is an air sign and astrologically the element of air is associated with the intellect). I have many observations (which may be valid or invalid) but I will mention one more.� Scorpio! is associated with vengefulness and secretiveness but I've noticed that people with moon in Taurus are more often vengeful and secretive (no offense to people who have moon in Taurus. If this observation is true it probably means that many people with moon in Taurus are more emotional and convoluted than astrologers believe).

From:	sylvie��
Date:	Sat, 20 Jan 2001

I suspect that on the MBTI and other tests on psychological types (such as the Keirsey tests)it is too easy to come out as an intuitve type. The reason might be because the language of these tests seem to be biased in favour of the intuitive function and against the sensing function. It is possible that if someone comes out with N in one of the four letters of his/her personality type it does not necessarily mean that that person is really an intuitive. In fact, he or she may very well be a sensing type whose interests happen to fit the kind of interests that are associated with intuitive personalities. Does anyone else suspect the same thing?

As for the correlation between psychological types and rising signs...If there is a correlation then it would mean that the most common psychological type would be INTP because Libra is the longest and most common ascendent, and INFJ, INTJ and ENTJ would be the rarest because Pisces and Aries are the shortest and most uncommon ascendents. In general the signs near Aries would have shorter ascendents than the signs near Libra which means that the psychological type corresponding to the former signs would be less common than the psychological types corresponding to the latter signs.� But if statistics are correct, INTP is not a common psychological type, and ESTJ, supposedly one of the most common types does not correspond with a sign with a long ascendent.

Also, I think that it is much easier for certain kinds of people (who are not necessarily feelers) to test as feelers than thinkers on the MBTI and Keirsey tests. I for one keep coming out as an F even though I'm quite certain that I'm a T (I would have to be a T or else I wouldn't keep contradicting everyone here all the time.) Short of lying there is no way that I can get a T on these tests. My theory is that if you happen to be a very friendly thinker(which is not impossible) you will test as an F even though your entire life is oriented towards thinking goals (e.g. finding truth). My point is that the MBTI and similar tests may not be good instruments for testing people's personalities. Therefore aside from the possibility that astrology is false, the fact that an individual's psychological type may or may not correlate with the right astrological sign may have something to do with the flaws on the personality tests.

From:	Holmes
	Holmes1053@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 7 Jan 2001

My scores:

MBTI: INTP (My feeling/Thinking scores are equal) Enneagram: 4w5 Oldham: Vigilant/Sensitive/Mercurial (Sensitive, Serious and Mercurial, Leisurely scores equal) Astrological sign: Sun in Libra, Ascendent in Gemini, Moon in Leo Diagnosed Personality Disorder: Chemical Depression/Anxiety

Not all my scores on the various tests were equivalent with to other, but there sure are some interesting correspondences. What is your opinion on it? I agree with you about the astrology test. You should be able to choose what fits you, and identify with that!

+++Thanks Holmes. Not too conclusive by way of test-taking. (Here's a link to an interesting thread over at Becca's Enneagram message board on the official MBTI� test and the variability of results.) Looks like your results are pointing toward either Vigilant or Sensitive. You should be able to study and compare the types in each system and choose the ones that fit you. I think that you will eventually arrive at a complete correspondence.

From:	Jess
	chanjess@hotmail.com
Date:	Thur, 4 Jan 2001

Very interesting! I tested on MBTI (Kiersey) as ENFJ while I believe myself to be 4w5, and my birth sign is Capricorn. I have just tried Don Riso's sample test and it shows me as 7 (scored 7) while 5 (scored 4) and 1 (scored 6).

+++Thanks Jess.

From:	Jack
	IN54TJ@CS.COM
Date:	Wed, 3 Jan 2001

Hi:

I attempted to make a point months ago when first coming across your web page, and it is, that your sun sign has no bearing on your personality. Your personality (when referencing to astrology studies) is measured by your rising or ascending sign. That is why many people will mistype you because they are seeing your ascending or rising sign in action, not the sun sign. I am a Gemini, however, a person who does not know me would not type me as such. My rising sign is Aries, I am a 5w4 and an INTJ.

I have typed those closest to me, and find their rising sign fits to the tee, when looking at the schedule on this page. In summary, I think you are hitting the nail on the head with the astrology information, however you may try rising and ascending sign for astrology. After all, isnt' this page about personalities?

Jack

+++Thanks Jack. I did understand about the ascending sign; I just don't believe in that either. It seems to work for you, but on PTypes I don't want to encourage anyone to believe in Astrology. I'd rather point them toward Evolutionary Psychology and Behavioral Genetics.

From:

Date:	Wed, 3 Jan 2001

I've taken all the tests. I am INxP, idiosyncratic, and score high in enneagram 9 and 5.

I think the problem in one word is "change". As I experience more of life, I grow and change. Yet, on these tests, I am often forced to answer "usual" which includes the past and may no longer apply today.

I think it's time to revamp some of those tests!

+++It may be. But I think the world is moving away from the MBTI� and the Enneagram. At least, I am.

From:	Susan Loretta��
	loretta6@bellsouth.net
Date:	Sat, 30 Dec 2000

Very interesting!� I test on MBTI (and Kiersey)as INFJ, and have believed myself to be a "1" on the enneagram.� My birth sign is Cancer. Maybe I am a "2" on the enneagram, but no way am I an E, and I doubt I have a sensate bone in my body! Maybe I misunderstand your correlations, but in any case, very interesting and causes me to marvel once again at the complexities of being human!

+++Thanks Susan. It's entirely okay for you to see yourself as a Myers-Briggs� INFJ and an Enneagram 1. I find that most peoples' types don't match up the way I have them here. To me, your type is probably either the "Piscean" Sensitive or the "Aquarian" Conscientious.

�

From: tove

toveirene@home.com

Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000

Very interesting to access your web site. I used to be interested in Astrology, then MB, and now the Enneagram.
Your correspondence of personlaity typologies fit somewhat, enough to make it worth while pursuing.
I am an 7w6, Scorpio, but an ENFP
Of people I know it also fits somwhat:
A 3w2 Capricorn but an ENTJ (also very self-confident and narcissistic - but I do not know the PTypes at all).
A 5w4 Aries + an INTJ.
A 4w3 (unknown astro sign)+ an INFP.
However, a 1w9 Libra INTJ have no correspondence at all.

Thanks for your good work.� How about collecting statistical data on your web site?

+++Thanks Tove. I'm not trying to be scientific, here. The correspondence represents how I think the types *should* match up, not how things actually are with any particular person or group of people.

�

From: max

maxmax2@mediaone.net

Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000

With the MBTI indicator, I consistently tested as an ENFP, and although I look toward the future (indicating N over S), I thought I was more spontaneous and less deeply soul-seeking, meaning I was inbetween SP and NF. On the other hand, Keirsey believes that SP and NF are quite opposite. On the Enneagram, I am a strong 7 with a smaller 2 branch, and I think I fit Mercurial better than Vigilant. This makes more sense to me than being inbetween NF and SP. By the way, I'm a Scorpio.

+++Thanks Max. Looks like a very good self-analysis.

�

From: Tom�

ttl6306@hotmail.com

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000

It has been my experience that a persons astrological type serves to modify the Meyers-Briggs type. I had the opportunity to know several individuals with the same MB type but different sun signs. And it become easy to see how they were alike and yet different. The differences largely came from the astrological differences.� I also had the chance to know some people with the same astrological sign but different MB types. And again the associations and differences help up as stated above. Including with me, an INTJ Capricorn.

+++Hi Tom,

It's highly probable that a person's Sun Sign will not match typologically with their Myers-Briggs� type. For instance, I am an INTP and my Sun Sign is Taurus but, as you can see from the chart above, I think that the astrological type which most closely corresponds to INTP is Libra.

�

From: Teresa L.�

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000

Hi!

Sorry, I must have made my last question unclear. But I'm not asking that question anymore. I just want to say that this is one of my favourite sites. I'm an ENFP, a type 5 in the enneagram, a Pisces, and since finding this site I've realized I might belong to the idiosyncratic type. This is all extremely interesting!

+++Thanks Teresa.

�

From: Sylvie�

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000

The most "selfish" people I know in my life aren't born under the sign of Aries. Astrologers keep saying that Aries is selfish. I never understood that. One more reason to conclude that astrology is stupid.

In my observation people who have "penetrating insight" aren't always Scorpios---not even close. But Scorpios are encouraged by astrologers and no doubt think that they (the Scorpios themselves) are penetratingly insightful.

The only sign that astrologers seem to describe accurately is Cancer.� Many real life Cancerians really are the way that astrologers claim that they are.

The 6 characteristics (especially "familiarity") of the "Sensitive" personality type seems to describe ISFJ more than it does INFJ. The sensitive type sounds more like a sensing rather than intuitive type. On the other hand, the "Idiosyncratic" personality, although more oriented towards thinking than feeling, seems to be a better fit for INFJ than does the sensitive type.

To Don, ISTJ with Schizoid Personality Disorder, � I may not be correct but this is my theory: Many people who come out as ISTJ on the MBTI or other Myers-Briggs personality tests actually have introverted thinking rather than introverted sensation as their dominant function (I have often noticed this to be the case). In that case they should really be ISTP. ISTP is very close to INTP. Maybe the Schizoid personality has more to do with introverted thinking than with extraverted intuition,i.e.,with ITP, and therefore would apply to ISTP.� This is only a theory.

I have been reading some of your past comments and I agree that people should choose their own astrological sign type rather than let themselves be determined by birthdate. If, for example, someone is born a Leo but finds him/herself identifying with Taurus, then there really is no reason why he/she cannot call hims/herself a Taurus. I like your advice about astrology. � One more comment. I've always wondered why there aren't any astrological personality tests in which people can find the sign that truly describes them.

�

From: Teresa L.�

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000

I have a question. You mentioned Albert Einstein as an example of the Idiosyncratic type. Would that mean that typologically he would also be an INTJ, type 5, Schizotypal, and an Aries? I am asking this because I am interested in studying the personalities of famous people.

+++Hi Teresa,

I'm not saying that Albert Einstein is an Aries, that is, that he was born under the Sign of Aries between March 21st and April 20th. I'm saying that, to my mind, the astrological type which most closely corresponds to the Idiosyncratic type is Aries. Some conceptual violence is done to the categories when trying to match them up in this way. In this case, Aries is somewhat of a stretch.

I appreciate your interest in the subject. Stop by again.

�

From: �

Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000

It would be better if you get rid of the astrological types. It is hardly the case that individuals who are of certain astrological signs actually have personalities that consistantly match the other corresponding personality types shown on the above chart. Geminis aren't even "solitary" most of the time, and Scorpios aren't mostly ENFPs.

�

From: Laura

Orientx4@aol.com

Date: Thur, 7 Dec 2000

Hello!

I just wanted you to know you have Michael Landon down as an ESTP.� He was actually a INFJ.

Laura

+++Thanks. I'll keep your idea in mind when I take a look at him again.

�

From: J R Taylor

j.r.taylor@asu.edu

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000

Thought you might be interested in the following on George W. and Al Gore.

http://slate.msn.com/Concept/00-09-26/Concept.asp

+++Thanks J.R. I did see this article back in September, wherein the author typed Al Gore as INTP and George W. Bush as ESTP. I was one of the first to respond (the replies listed no longer go back that far) - I thought that the typing was preposterous.

Here's a copy of that message which I had also made an entry to my weblog:

Preposterous (and probably politically influenced) Myers-Briggs� typing by Emily Yoffe of Al Gore and George W. Bush [thanks, Kevin C. Murphy]. The problem with the Myers-Briggs� system is that it's more of a dimensional profiler than a typing system. The dimensions and the type descriptions are so psychologically "thin" that no one using it (including the expert) can consistently type famous people correctly.
Al Gore is ENFJ and George W. Bush is ISFJ. You can count on it.

This is an entry that I made to my weblog a few days later:

The ego defense mechanism, projection, is the particular form of denial, or repression, by which we deny some negative trait in ourselves by projecting it onto someone else. I believe that I've discovered an interesting political phenomenon in which political partisans are denying not their own traits but the odious characteristics of one of their favorites, and projecting them onto the favorite of their political opponents - all unconsciously, of course.
I first noticed this on several Enneagram boards when President Clinton, who had been widely typed as 3w2 by Enneagramists and as narcissistic in the press, started to be talked about as being various other types. What seems to be happening is that some left-of-center folk, who are burdened with integrity and are embarrassed by some of the President's actions, are unconsciously denying his narcissistic traits and projecting them onto George W. Bush! So we get Don Riso and Russ Hudson over at the Enneagram Institute typing Bush as the narcissistic 3w2 and Dr. David Keirsey typing him as the narcissistic ESTP. It amazes me.
Correction: After rereading Dr. Keirsey's analysis, I would say that his reaction is more like, "Bush is just like Bill Clinton."

And I recently posted the following message to Jan's Forum on Enneatypes in Movies, Literature, and Public Life:

In what I saw as an interesting case (first time I became aware of it) of *political* projection, political partisans projected *Bill Clinton's* type onto George W. Bush! For example, David Keirsey had Bush as an ESTP and Don Richard Riso said he was a 3w2. It *was* the silly season.
But now, observers like the New York Times' Maureen Dowd are beginning to become more aware of Bush's Devoted ISFJ 6w7 (fearful) style.

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Messages: Archive 1

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